She Said, She Said: We’re So Lost, 5×03   

Sorry for the delay in getting this done… but as you’re going to see below, Jody and I got a little caught up in our discussion of this week’s episode of Lost, “Jughead.”

Daniel examines the bomb for the Others in LOST 5x03.Rae: First: AWESOME episode!! Except it took a second viewing to really love it. Mostly because I was too caught up in the hype and my expectations that first time to just let myself enjoy what I was getting. I kept expecting the huge reveals and twists people promised by those who had seen it early and not really getting those.

I’m wondering if some of that wasn’t because those people didn’t have anyone to discuss the first two episodes with before seeing this one? Or they aren’t as entrenched in online discussions as the rest of us? I suppose the bomb and all the things its existence would explain should have been the biggest reveal here but, for me, it was Locke telling Richard about his birth. Love that we now know why Richard goes to see that and keeps going back to see him. The tests and things being explained by Richard’s attempts to see if Locke really is meant to be their leader was great. Plus, it also explains Richard’s willingness to help Locke when he finally appears on the island. Might even explain Ben’s behavior towards Locke. Either way, I loved the way all of those things fell into place with that one little reveal.

As for the reveal about Widmore, well it felt more like confirmation to a theory than a huge revelation. Possibly because you had come up with the Widmore being on the island theory last week and I agreed that it made a lot of sense? So finding out about a younger Charles Widmore here was more of “awesome, we were right!” moment rather than a “OMG!” moment. Maybe that was just me?
Anyway, I’ve got so much more to say but I want to get your initial thoughts first. Though I do want to make it clear that, despite my not thinking it was as amazing an episode as all those early reviewers thought, I did love it and it’s my favorite of the season so far. What’d you think? You weren’t a fan of the time traveling parts before so how were you here? They obviously only traveled once in the episode but was there enough character stuff to draw you in? Inquiring minds want to know!

Just Jody: And this is why I have been hype-free for Lost this season. I’ve been reading NOTHING until after the episode, and even then I’m only reading a select few trusted reviews. So I wasn’t very in tune with the hype for this episode.

I wasn’t that blown away by the bomb reveal either. I think for me it was because the Young Others asked Daniel & Co. if they were back for the bomb pretty early on, so when they showed us the bomb it seemed expected I guess. And you know me, continuity is what gets my TV juices flowing so the reveal of why Richard was at Locke’s birth was a big one for me too. I’m just giddy about how all of a sudden all these wacky, seemingly unexplainable things that have been happening over the past 4 seasons, are suddenly starting to make sense. (I’m still firmly of the belief that Ben is Locke’s little half brother, so for me that explains Ben’s behaviour towards Locke, and their past discussions about who is really the chosen one.)

In episode 5x03 of LOST we find out Charles Widmore was on the island as a young man.I’ve also been of the belief that Widmore had been on that Island before for some time now, so that wasn’t really a shocking reveal for me either. But, I had always wondered if he was there as part of Dharma or as one of the Others? I’d always been a little more in the Dharma camp, so I was excited to find it actually confirmed that he definitely was there, and that he was really an Other! I think this re-inforces my theory that he had to spin the big wheel before Ben, and that’s why he can’t get back to the island. Because before all their methods of transportation were blown up, it seemed like some people could go back and forth from the island at will? It doesn’t really explain the animosity between him and Ben though? Unless that’s just because Ben got to stay on the island? Or maybe because Ben became a leader? Clearly this stuff we saw last night all happened before Ben ever came to the island, or before Ben was even born.

Also, don’t you wonder how many other of the Others are among those young ones we saw? Ben? Tom? Christian?? Locke’s Dad?
For me, any episode of Lost is better than 98% of what’s on TV these days, so I have absolutely no complaints about the episode. Having them only time travel once was much better than last week when it seemed like they were flipping every time we saw them. I do love getting all the back-story and connections that are appearing when they’re in the past, so as long as they keep it to a minimum, I think I’m OK with it.

I did kind of miss the O6 this week, but I really loved all the Des. & Penny stuff so that helped make up for their absence. How sweet is it that they called their son Charlie. Maybe not a surprise since as soon as I saw the little boy I said to B, “Aw, I bet they named him Charlie.” And now their little family is off to LA together. Will they have to keep going to the island? Can’t you just see Aaron, Ji Yeon & Charlie all playing together on the island in the end?

Could Ellie be Eloise Hawking?And then there’s the fascinating parenting theories that I’ve been reading… one from your tweets last night, and the other from Televisionary. These are up quite high up on my list of what I found to be the shocking reveals last night! First that Daniel is likely being held at gunpoint by his own mother! I didn’t see the subtitled repeat episode, so I wasn’t aware we had been given her first name and never would have made that possible connection, but I love it! Guess I’m going to have to start watching those now. And then that Widmore could possibly be Daniel’s father! Granted they have given us no concrete evidence of that, but the pieces do fit as Jace explains it (see the theory at the end).

Rae: Smart of you on avoiding the hype! Although I honestly don’t feel like I could have avoided it. I follow too many TV bloggers/critics on Twitter. I read no reviews about the episode, it was all the reactions via Twitter that did me in. But, like I said, it didn’t stop me from enjoying the episode. It just meant that my initial reaction to it was , “Why did they think this was a game changing episode again?” And I really do think our discussions are part of that. I’ve seen lots of people who were surprised by many of the things we had already been mulling over. If I hadn’t already thought Widmore had been on the island at some point, I would have been shocked to find out he was there.

I think you’ve nailed why the bomb thing wasn’t did illicit an, “OMG!” From me, anyway. It wasn’t like we didn’t know they were talking about a bomb and it just made so many things start to fall into place. Sometimes the most obvious answer… It was the leak that made me gasp but of how it related back to the whole radiation issue.

I just don’t know about Ben being Locke’s half brother. Explain to me again why you think that? I think I’ve forgotten the pieces you put together to get there.

I don’t think we’ve seen the reason for the animosity between Ben and Widmore yet. I’m clinging to my idea that Ben is Charlotte’s constant (though I don’t know why I am so certain of this) and am wondering if the animosity is going to revolve around her somehow. Or, more importantly, around Annie. But, again, all speculation because I don’t think we’ve been given enough information to really decide what’s going on between them yet.

Would it make sense that Christian could be an Other? I had the same thought about him. Didn’t think about Locke’s Dad. Was he surprised when he was brought to the Island? I can’t remember his reactions in that episode. Hey… what do we know about Locke’s mother?

Well, I think your answer is enough… you didn’t write back and say how AMAZING you thought the episode was! That’s what I was trying to gauge, because so many of the people who were responding to it early were all blown away by it so I wanted to see if I was wrong not to be…

Biggest AWW Moment of Lost 5x03: Penny and Desmond have an adorable boy and name him... CHARLIE!I LOVE Desmond and Penny. Have I mentioned that? Loved their story here. Loved that they named their son Charlie. And such an adorable kid too! Desmond on the boat telling him about an island he left long ago was great. I think Desmond’s, “Why in God’s name would I want to go back there?” was a sign that Desmond isn’t done with the island.

Been reading a lot of the parenting theories too. Lots of them have been brought up over at Alan Sepinwall’s post about the episode. It does seem that a lot of people agree with the idea that Ms. Hawking = Daniel’s Mother = Eloise = Ellie. The repeats don’t ALWAYS give away new info but sometimes they slid some stuff in there. It’s funny because I didn’t watch the whole thing but I happened to catch that scene and, when they showed her name, I was like, “Did we know that already?” Then thought nothing of it until I watched the episode and read Jace’s post. For a minute there, I thought Ellie was the girl Daniel experimented on but then I realized they had two different names so that didn’t fit. The theory of it being his mother works much better. I’m not sure how I’m feeling about the idea Widmore as Daniel’s father but that could make a lot of sense. And it would make an even better argument for why Desmond is Daniel’s constant.

Here’s my question… the guy on the freighter that was getting the nose bleeds, etc? Does this mean he was somehow associated with the island at some point? Because that reaction to the time travel stuff only seems to happen to people who have a direct tie to the island and are stuck in time loops without a constant.

Also, and this is such a nitpick! It bugged me that they were all so close to each other after the time flash. Daniel, Sawyer, and Juliet were literally just a few steps away from Charlotte and Miles even though they walked away from the camp for a bit before they got to the bomb. The flash happened, the tents disappeared and suddenly they were right next to each other? That made me role my eyes.

Locke is frustrated when they move in time before he gets an answer from Richard.OH! Also, Terry O’Quinn totally cracked me up as John after the flash. Where he was all, “What the hell?! I didn’t get my answer!!” (He didn’t say that but he had this really over-exaggerated reaction to the tents being gone that came off that way.)

Just Jody: So do you think that the bomb is what’s causing the big energy leak that Dr. Candle/Chang was talking about at the beginning of the season premiere, or are you thinking of something else when you say “the whole radiation issue”? Update: I just finished watching The Constant from last season, and Myles asks if Desmond has been exposed to radiation or electromagnetism, and he’s also concerned about radiation when he’s doing his tests on the rat Eloise in the past. So chances are that radiation plays a factor in the time travel somehow, I just don’t really get how.

So my reasons for thinking that Ben & Locke are brothers is that in last season’s episode Cabin Fever it was revealed that both Locke & Ben’s mothers were named Emily, and they both looked extremely similar. Locke’s mother was very young when she had him and she gave him up for adoption, which could potentially allow her to go off and start a whole new family with Roger Linus. This could possibly explain the connection both Locke & Ben have to the island and each other.

When Young Widmore asked Richard “You think he knows this island better than I do?” he did seem to feel like he was somehow important on the island. It makes sense if that’s the case that he wouldn’t love the young kid (Ben) who came along and took what he wanted/loved.

It seems that if Ben were Charlotte’s constant, they’d have to have some contact pretty soon. Both the men on the boat who died from the same “sickness” died pretty quickly after getting the nosebleeds. They seemed to have gotten the “sickness” while trying to get to the island in the freighter’s dinghy. There are no references to them ever having ties to the island. Also, I thought it was noteworthy that the constant does not have to be a person, in fact it seemed like it was unusual for it to be a person.

I think it makes sense that Christian was an Other. Maybe he was a Dr. on the island in his day too. :) I’ve often wondered if they all have parents with ties to the island and that’s why they’re there? Kate’s real dad has popped-up in various flashbacks, Claire & Jack have Christian, Locke’s Dad was on the island and a part of Sawyer’s past with his father, now Daniel. There are a lot of daddy issues on this show, it makes sense that it would all be related.

I’d have to say it was Juliet and Sawyer who cracked me up this week. So many funny lines from both of them! First as if Juliette actually calls them “Others”. And then “Others 101. Gotta learn Latin. Language of the enlightened.” had me LOL. Also Sawyer’s “Hate to bust up the I’m an other, you’re an other reunion…” was great too. As was Locke’s “Good luck with that” reply.

The painting seen the office of Charles Widmore.I found quite a few things in the scene with Desmond in Widmore’s office in the present (or almost present?) that struck me as interesting:

  1. Widmore has an abstract ‘island’ painting in his office. It has Namaste across the top of it, you can see a polar bear, what could be New Otherton, and what could also be an upside down statue… that for some reason reminded me of the four toed partial staue we’ve seen in the past.
  2. Widmore has a model sailboat in his office, which reminded me that Libby is the one who gave Desmond the sailboat that took him to the island in the first place. I’d always thought she was in cahoots with Widmore and that he worked for Dharma. If Widmore’s an Other does that mean that Libby was an Other too?
  3. Widmore told Desmond that he was giving him AN address for Daniel’s mother, not THE address. Does this mean his search will not be over as easily as it may seem?
  4. How does Widmore know that Desmond has a message to deliver??
  5. Widmore tell Desmond “You’re getting yourself involved in something that goes back many, many years and has nothing to dowith you or my daughter…” Does this mean that Desmond does not actually have to go back to the island and his part in all this will really be done once the message is delivered?

And one last thing that doesn’t really fit in with the rest. I read that Frogurt/Neil was killed after 101 days on the island. Do you suppose the O6 will get back at 108 days? Or maybe time will reset at that point?

Rae: Yeah, I’m guessing the bomb is the radiation leak. Although it doesn’t explain the wheel under the island. I don’t get how it can play into the time travel either but definitely seems to be a concern.

Oooh, ok, right now I remember our discussion about their mothers being named Emily, etc. See, that’s what I get for not missing out on some of Mona’s re-watch of last season. I think people are definitely more connected than they think they are… or know they are. And I know they’ve said something about how they really weren’t trying to send a message with the way people intersected in those earlier flashbacks but it does work nicely to show that these people have connections they didn’t even realize they had.

Charlotte is not looking so good at the end of LOST 5x03.I know, I know, my theory about Ben and Charlotte isn’t going to be true for that very reason. I was hoping the 70 hours thing would correspond to how quickly he needed to get back to save her but that doesn’t work out. Once the guy on the boat got this bad, he was dead pretty quickly. Hmmm, I am going to have to re-watch The Constant aren’t I? I did watch that with Mo but I don’t remember how your constant doesn’t have to be a person. The nosebleed thing doesn’t happen to everyone though so there has to be some kind of connection with the people it does happen to… which is what made me think of those guys and what they would have in common with Desmond, Daniel, and Charlotte.

Haha, yes! Maybe it’s all about the fathers on this show. Wonder how Jacob plays into that? Even Jin and Sun could say the reason they ended up on the island was a direct result of her father’s actions. He may not be directly connected to the island but his actions put them on the path that led them there.

I have to say, I’m kinda loving the team of Juliet & Sawyer! I mean, I don’t want them hooking up but I like how they play off each other. Miles sometimes cracks me up but never as much as these two do.

I think Desmond and Penny are on the same timeline as the O6ers. Although, if they are, I hope they don’t plan to sail to LA or there goes that 70 hours thing! I saw other people point out the painting in Widmore’s office. I guess I need to go back and re-watch for it because I didn’t even notice it. I’ve always remembered that Widmore has connections to Desmond and his sailboat. I don’t know if he was controlling Libby, though I wouldn’t put it past him, but the only reason Desmond does the race is because Widmore enters him (though Des doesn’t sail Widmore’s boat) and told him about it. I always felt that Widmore was responsible for Desmond going to the island for that reason. Hmmm, I think you may be stretching with the “an” vs “the” there but maybe. Honestly, I would think Widmore would just assume Desmond has a message to deliver from the way he demanded the address and why would he even needed if he didn’t have something to say to her? That or Abigail Spencer, the sister of the girl Daniel experimented on, could have told him since Desmond told her he had a message to deliver and he ran out on her after hearing about Widmore. From that reaction she may have realized Desmond knew Widmore and called Widmore to let him know?

As for what Widmore told Desmond, I still don’t think that necessarily rules out Desmond not going back to the island. It MAY mean he’s not one of the people who HAS to go back but it felt more like Widmore was just trying to make sure Penny’s kept far away from what’s going on… After all, Widmore knows Ben and what Ben will do with anyone can give him an advantage over Widmore. Refresh my memory… does Widmore know what happened to Alex? Was that something Ben told Widmore when he came to see him? That he would kill Penny? If so, it could explain why Widmore wants Penny kept far away from what’s happening and why he didn’t go searching for her when she disappeared 3 years ago. ANYWAY, all of that to say, I still think Desmond doomed himself to return to the island the minute he acted like there was nothing that could convince him to go back.

Hmmm, maybe that’s where the 70 hours deadline comes into play? I read somewhere else, and I wish I could link back to these references but I’ve read too many things at this point, a theory that what Ms. Hawking was doing in that room was figuring out when the island would re-appear in the present day and that’s why she told Ben they only had 70 hours… maybe that will equal to 108 days? I dunno.

Daniel tells Desmond to take a message to his mother.Ok, so the one other thing I wanted to bring up was Desmond’s memory of Daniel talking to him. Desmond didn’t “remember” until we saw it happen on the show. Is that because it hadn’t happened yet in the past? (Is that sentence confusing enough?) But does that violate the rules of nothing can be changed? Except Daniel and Desmond seem to be the exceptions to that (as in, they can affect each other, just nothing else). Anyway. I was thinking about it because I wonder if it would work that way again. If Daniel interacts with Desmond again at some point, would that be the moment that Desmond suddenly “remembers” it happening. In other words, it can’t be a memory until happens and it didn’t happen in the past until the moment Daniel flashes there. Hahahaha, I’m talking in circles so I’m gonna just STOP talking!

Just Jody: I don’t really think Widmore was controlling Libby, so much as they were working for the same team. I think it’s too much of a coincidence that she just happened to run into Desmond, and just happened to have the one thing he needed, and that her husband had just died of some mysterious illness. She was also seen in a flashback at the airport smoothing out an argument between Mr. Eko and Charlotte Malkin, which I think was actually her ensuring that Mr. Eko did get on the plane. AND she was in the same mental institution as Hurley. I really think she’s more in on all this than we’ve been lead to believe.

Yes, Widmore does know that Alex has been murdered and that Ben blames him, and plans to retaliate by killing his daughter in return. And it’s pretty likely that Widmore is actually the one who sent the mercenaries to the island in the first place, so I kinda think he knew all about it before Ben told him what he was going to do. And Widmore didn’t really seem surprised to find out that Alex was dead either.

Penny goes into labor in a flashback on LOST 5x03.I’ve actually been wondering if Penny isn’t going to be the key to it all… like if she ends up on the island will Ben even still want to kill her? She probably wouldn’t stay dead anyway, so what would be the point? And if she’s on the island would that stop Widmore and his mission to find it and kill everyone on it? Maybe her and Desmond are the Adam & Eve that were discovered in the caves in season 1? All I know is that we’ve become far more emotionally attached to Penny & Des than we are to any of the other couples on the show, and I can’t imagine the writers have set up that emotional link because they don’t matter. Although, I do also have this incredible fear that something bad is going to happen to them… like when Penny was in labour, I was sure she was going to die. I was even worried that it was a flash-forward and she was going to be on the island trying to give birth. Then when Des said, I’ll be back I promise, I was SURE that she’d never see him again. I just hope that whatever their path is, that this dread I have for them is never realized!

OK… yes, I do think that Desmond only remembered his conversation with Myles once we saw it because it hadn’t actually happened yet. BUT, I also think that Desmond has answered the door and asked someone if they were his replacement before as well. (This too is now on my list of things to find in past episodes.) So… I think that they have memories of something happening, but don’t actually remember the reality or the details until the event has happened in the past as well. (Does that top your confusing sentence?) In a previous episode, Locke loses use of his legs in the same spot Ethan shot him. An example that may help that make sense is Locke’s getting shot by Ethan. When he was with Boone, he had temporary loss of his legs in the same spot, but couldn’t figure out why… this made no sense until he went to the past and was shot when in the same place. As for the rules, I think they may a little looser than Daniel’s “time is like a street” speech led us to believe? Like you can’t change the course of a life – dead is dead, but you can alter the less drastic things. Like Ethan shooting Locke, Richard going to Locke’s birth, etc. Does that answer your Q, or just make it all that much more confusing?

Rae: Oh, Libby totally has some bigger connection here. If she doesn’t, I’ll be disappointed. She’s connected to too many different people not to have been playing a part in something.

Ahh, ok, thanks for the confirmation about Widmore. That’s what I though. Hence why I think he wants Desmond to keep Penny away from the island. I’ve seen that theory, Penny and Desmond turning out to be the Adam and Eve, someplace else too. I guess the one good thing about that is it would mean they died together? I’m not sure how I feel yet since it means they have to go back in time… but, then, some thoughts I have about the multiple Charlies we have right now could play into that theory. (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we have two characters named Charles on the show.) I was very afraid for them too! I was pretty sure the birth scene was a flash back but I was worried about her LATER. Eep! I wanted to tell Desmond to get back on the boat and forget what Daniel told him.

Holy crap, I didn’t think about Locke’s temporary loss of his legs in the past. Damn. Oy, my head is gonna explode trying to get these things straight! However, that does answer my question about what things they can change. Just like them shooting the other Others when they’re threatening Juliet and Sawyer. Not that this was something “less drastic” per se but it could be something that was going to happen no matter what so it didn’t matter if it happened a little earlier.

OK. I think we’re both out of things to say… And everyone else is breathing a sigh of relief at that! So, is anyone out there still reading this? If so, got anything to add?

4 Responses to “She Said, She Said: We’re So Lost, 5×03”

  1. 1
    Stella says:

    1. I also was not surprised about Widmore being on the island. After Ben’s visit to him last season, it seemed a foregone conclusion that he’d been there before.

    2. I think everyone is reading too much into Locke and Ben’s moms both being named Emily. The writers may have a reason for giving them the same name, but it’s not because they are the same person. Locke’s mom gave him up and grew up to be Swoosie Kurtz–who hooked him up for the kidney transplant with his con-man Dad many years later.

    Ben’s mom died giving birth to him. They can’t possibly be the same person.

    3. The nosebleeds do have something to do with radiation and how it reacts with the island’s natural time travel powers. It’s a reaction to the time travel. Daniel’s rats keep dying of it and it’s also the reason (my theory) that Theresa Spencer (Desmond’s visit in Oxford) is delusional. She’s flashing like Desmond did and can’t stop.

    4. I think you mean “mercenaries” not “missionaries.” Keamy and co. didn’t seem like the evangelical types.

  2. 2
    Polter-Cow says:

    Okay, you two just fried my brain. Holy crap, this fucking show.

  3. 3
    Rae says:

    Heh, Stella, maybe your mercenary is my missionary! ;) J/K, dunno how we missed that but thank you for the correction.

    2) Ahh, ok, good point about Ben’s mother dying. I really do need to go back and watch. It takes five of us to keep all the details of past episodes straight!

    3) I thought the nosebleeds were more specifically about being jerked back and forth between times with no way for your brain to keep track of where you are? Except that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening with Charlotte. I have to admit I still don’t quite GET the “constant” thing, etc. Makes it hard for me to reason these things out. (Side note: While I was writing about this, I got a SPAM email about a radiology center… spooky!)

  4. 4

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